Nottinghamshire Rifle Association

Nottingham Evening Post 7 May 1894

Nottingham Town Council Quarterly Meeting

THE ROBIN HOOD'S RIFLE RANGE.

Ald. Sir John Turney said he wished to move that the Standing Orders be suspended, in order that the Council might discuss the question of the Robin Hood's Rifle range. His reason was that preliminary contracts had been entered into, which must, in the course of a few days, be ratified or cancelled, and the matter was a pressing one.
Mr. Truman seconded the motion.

Mr. Wells moved, as an amendment, that the question be deferred until after the local budget had been discussed. This was a matter in which some expenditure was involved, and he thought they ought to take the financial question first.
Mr. Wright seconded the amendment.

Ald. Sir John Turney said unless they dealt with the question that morning the whole thing would fall through. They ought to have a definite vote one way or the other on the question. The budget could have nothing whatever to do with this report. Six voted for the amendment, which was, therefore, lost, and the motion for the suspension of the Standing Orders was then carried.

Ald. Sir John Turney then said he had pleasure in introducing the report of the Rifle Range Committee, and in doing so he would like to say that this matter had been before the Council for some time. It was felt was felt it could be done without appealing to the Council for help, that the regiment or those connected with the regiment - the War Office - would find the shooting ground for the volunteer force of the town. But the War Office or those in authority in London had declined to invest money permanently in such works. Of course the Council were aware that other regiments did get support from the War Office, but only after they had earned it, and without a range from which they could shoot it was impossible for them to get that support. The capitation grant ranged from something like 10s. to 34s. a man. Therefore, the efficiency of the regiment brought in this money, but beyond a doubt the War Office would not help the regiment. Everything had been done by the officers of the regiment, and he believed by a deputation to induce the War Office to carry out what he was going to propose should be carried out by the Council. They had a definite reply from London, and the time would come for them to consider that. Unless they as the representatives of the people took the matter up and helped the regiment to a rifle range, the regiment would become a fifth or sixth rate regiment, or, failing that it would have to be disbanded, because he took it that the very life and soul of the volunteer force was in the having of a suitable ground on which they could practice shooting. A rifle corps without efficient marksmen was absolutely useless. He did not think anyone could doubt that. He did not think there was any man or woman in that town, of they could be appealed to that day, that would regret the course he was advising the Council to take. That was the expenditure of about £16,000, so that they might have the satisfaction of helping the Robin Hoods to maintain the very high position which the regiment had won for many years among the volunteer forces in that country. He did not want at the present time to increase the burden on the town, but at the same time, if they were to maintain the position of Nottingham among the municipalities of that country, whatever the state of the trade might be, an expenditure of money must go on at times, and he looked upon such an expenditure as he proposed that morning as wise and judicious. They would be sorry, indeed to see their regiment lose its position. It had won honours of the highest kind from far higher authorities in the country than that Council. In asking them to accept the report he would like to call their attention to the fact that the burden would be comparatively light for the year upon the town, not amounting to a rate of more than one tenth of a penny in the pound. That being so, he thought he might ask the Council that morning, with the exception of one or two, to give him a unanimous vote on the matter. He asked for a unanimous vote because he felt that that was the first opportunity that that Council had had as a body of paying a very high compliment to the regiment, which it well deserved. He thought that they should concede such a consideration as that with a good grace, and in providing them with a range they would only be doing what they ought.

The Sheriff seconded the report, and he said that he would address himself to the details of the arrangements proposed to be made. From the report placed in the hands of the members of the Hall they would see that the proposition was for the Council to purchase an estate for the use of the Robin Hoods as a range. That estate would be the property of the Council. The volunteers would be the tenants of the Corporation, so that they would have full control over the estate they purchased. Sir John Turney had pointed out that efforts had been made to get the Imperial Government to take the matter up. He thought that there was a general feeling that they ought to have done so, and he for one was disappointed at the result of the deputation to London. It was not because the authorities did not appreciate the value of the regiment, but the fact was that they felt that if they provided a range for Nottingham they would have to find ranges for other parts of the country. In that sense the matter was a more serious one than they were willing to undertake. It, therefore, remained with the Council practically to decide whether the Robin Hoods should remain with them as one of the institutions of Nottingham, or whether they should be allowed to collapse. The matter was in the hands of the members, because, as had already been pointed out, unless the Robin Hoods had somewhere to go to shoot and qualify themselves for the grant they would come to an end. The regiment with its splendid history would simply be disbanded, and they would have nothing but the recollection of it. When the matter was first before the Council he was somewhat alarmed, for he thought it was going to be expensive, but when they saw that the Robin Hoods were willing to bear part of the expenses - about half - reducing the expenses to about £300 a year, his feeling was that sooner than disaster should overtake the regiment the town should provide the money. With regard to the volunteer movement altogether it was scarcely necessary to go into it, but they had two points before them. First of they had to take their part in saying whether they thought the volunteers as an institution throughout the country should be maintained, and he should like Nottingham to be the first to provide a range for their regiment, and show that they had some patriotic spirit in them. There was no doubt whatever that the organisation of the volunteer force years ago had saved the country an immense amount of money. It had saved them also from the odious system of the conscription which obtained in continental countries. All her Majesty's soldiers were volunteers. Some were paid, but others worked for nothing, and it was the latter they desired to support that morning. They were proud of the achievements of the Robin Hoods. Personally he felt proud that as a member of the regiment he once marched before her Majesty on the occasion of the Hyde Park review. (Hear, hear.) He was bound to say that the entertainment was rather meagre, for all he had that day was a drink of water out of a watering pan in one of her Majesty's greenhouses, he supposed it was. (Laughter.) For all that he was proud to have taken part in the proceedings of that glorious day. Something like 8,500 men had passed through the regiment, and at present there were 1,000 men in it, so that 9,500 citizens of Nottingham had at one time been connected with the Robin Hoods, and they all knew that the influence of the regiment had been good on the young men of the town. (Hear, hear.) It had found them something to occupy their attention, and had been a physical and moral training, which had certainly done good to the town, and he should be very sorry to see it collapse. While the town would find part of the money it was not all the expense. The Robin Hoods could not be carried on without some voluntary contributions, and he would like to remind the Hall that for years past a number of gentlemen had put their hands into their pockets, and subscribed most liberally to keep the regiment together. No doubt expense would still fall on them, but they were willing to bear it if the Council made it possible for the regiment to maintain its expense. Sir John Turney had pointed out that that day was the day when they must decide on that question one way or the other, and he could thoroughly confirm that it was most important that the matter should be settled. One or two of the preliminary contracts were expiring, and if they allowed them to expire it might be a long time before they got them into form again. The Robin Hoods had been most fortunate in securing this site. It was close to a railway station, and was in every way a favourable one. Moreover it would be a permanent one. It was quite suitable for the rifle which was to be brought out, and there would be no likelihood of any call being made on the Council to provide another range. When he had asked the question whether the range would do for any improved rifle he was told that it was not a question of an improved rifle; it was one of an improved man, for the rifle would carry a bullet as far as a man could see. If they passed this report they would be playing a compliment to their own townsmen, would be acting in accordance with the feelings of the town, and would not entail any great burden on the town. (Applause.)

Mr. J.H. Brown would like to ask one or two particulars. Would the £16,000 include banking, levelling, and dyeking, and what might be necessary in that respect? He would also like to know if it was intended that there should be a permanent Rifle Range Committee of the Council to supervise all the details of expenditure?

Sir John Turney said they were informed by those who took a great interest in the matter that the £16,000 would cover everything, such as the purchase of the land and the rights, and to carry out the structural work. So far as the Rifle Committee went that was a matter for the Council to decide on afterwards. All they wanted now was permission to go with the work as soon as possible.

Mr. White asked if the land was all grass? If it was it struck him as being rather a low rental.

Sir John Turney: A piece of it is the Trent. (Laughter).

Mr. Sutton asked if any answer had been received to a letter which was sent up lately by the Town Clerk asking for a definite reply from the War Office authorities.

Sir John Turner: You have not read your report.

Mr. Sutton: There was a letter sent up from the sub-committee a fortnight ago.

Sir John Turney: And this letter of the 24th is a reply to it.

Ald. Goldschmidt wished to ask Sir John Turney this question. Who would guarantee the payment of the £250 a year. The Robin Hoods were a moveable body; the members of today might not be members five or ten years hence, and therefore he would like to ask what guarantee they had as to the annual payment of the sum of £250.

Sir John Turney said he was glad Ald. Goldschimdt had given him notice of that question. It seemed to him thast the rifle range was the very life and soul of the regiment, and if he was to judge of the next 30 years by the past 30 years, he thought the regiment itself would be sufficient guarantee for that money. He did not think it was necessary for anyone or any individual to absolutely enter into a guarantee. The time was far distant when the Robin Hood Rifles would cease to exist as a regiment, and while that was so beyond a doubt the £250 would be paid. (Hear, hear.) But there might come a time when the Council would be more generous than they were that morning, and say to the Robin Hoods, "You can have the rifle range for nothing." (Hear, hear.)

Mr. Baggaley asked whether the range would be the exclusive property of the Robin Hoods - (no, no) - or whether the Derbyshire and Leicestershire Regiments would have the opportunity of using it.

Sir John Turney said they did not intend to let the range to any regiment outside their own town. It was their exclusive property over which they had every possible control.

Mr. Bentley said that it was not often that he rose to support additional expenditure but as an old Robin Hood, retiring after serving eight years, he felt a little bit interested in the old regiment yet. He thought that if any Nottingham men would just for five minutes think of the service that the volunteer force had been to the country, and not only to the country but to every town in which that force had been inaugurated. He had the pleasure like the Sheriff of being in Hyde Park, and when the Queen passed by he did not know whether he (the Sheriff) noticed it, but he did that she moved to him. (Loud laughter.) Mr. Bentley went on to say he had not the least doubt that every volunteer gave no small amount of his money, but also sacrificed a great amount of his time to the force, and when they had a body of men who would come forward and volunteer for service to defend their country, he thought the Council would be very paltry indeed if they declined, for one moment, to assist them at this juncture of their existence. He believed himself the time would come - of course he did not expect it would come under this Government, but if they got a strong Unionist Government - when there would be a recognition of the volunteer force throughout the country. It was a Government question, and he contended the Government ought to see that every volunteer corps in which the men gave their time and money in defence of their country, that it was the cheapest way to get soldiers. He believed the time would come for the Government to provide not only for the Robin Hoods, but for every volunteer corps in the country. They ought to be proud of this opportunity; he felt so himself. It was not a question of expense; they were not going to put much expense on the rates, and he thought it would most likely be that the little expense they put on would eventually be made up. He therefore had great pleasure in supporting what some people seemed frightened at. It was a little expense, and it was, he thought, one of the most reasonable ways in which they could lay out their money for the benefit of the town generally.

Ald. Renals thought they might perhaps that morning divide the Council into two parties, those who had been in the volunteers, and those who had not. As one who had not, he should give his vote that morning, probably with as much pleasure as any vote he had ever given since he had been a public man connected with his native town. He hoped the Council would rise to the dignity of the occasion. He looked on this as a very important matter, a national one, and he trusted they would give a cheerful and unanimous vote in favour of buying this land. He wished to congratulate the committee on the satisfactory report they had presented. He was exceedingly sorry this question about the £250 had been asked, because he would like the town to know they would take the promise the men had given, as honourable men. Moreover the land would be the property of the Council, and if at any time the regiment was not in a position to pay, and the town was mean enough, they could sell the land. Let those, however, who were then the representatives of the town take the responsibility upon themselves, and it would not rest on them. He hoped they would have a unanimous vote, and so testify how much they appreciated the efforts of those who had been and were members of the regiment.

Mr. Hardy was almost sorry to introduce a note of discord, because there seemed to be such a feeling of appreciation of the martial ardour of those who had had the honour of passing the Queen. He thought in this sense the Council was being led away with the good nature of the expressions that had been made. The only thing he heard of as a return was the honour which this regiment had done to the town. The mover and the seconder of the report distinctly emphasised that, but it was a question for them to consider from the ratepayers' point of view whether the honour was worth the money they were asked to pay for it.

Mr. Bentley said it was a mere trifling expense, but putting on the top of the 5s. 2d. rate ("Not Yet.") - he was proud to hear there was some disposition to protest, because after the money was spent they must find the means. If they were to prevent the rates rising, it must be by taking time by the forelock, and by stopping the expenditure when brought before the Council. It had been suggested by one of the previous speakers that if they had a change of Government, and had a "Jingo" Government in power, they would not allow such a splendid regiment to go down for want of funds. He would also point out that there were hundreds of sinecure offices connected with the War Department that they could well dispense with, and appropriate the money thus saved to the volunteers who were willing to give their time to the service of their country. They ought to consider that so many things were looming in the distance. They would be asked presently for £40,000 for cleansing the Leen. They knew how they treated the Baths Committee when they asked for something like £9,000 to complete the bathing equipment of the town. Here, for a matter of honour, they were willing to spend all this money. On grounds of economy, and in the interests of the ratepayers, he should be bound to vote against the motion, and he did it for the reason that he could not give a silent vote, because his constituents would want to know the reason.

Ald. Fraser thought that Mr. Hardy's speech, coming, as it did, from a member of the School Board, would greatly surprise the Hall. He wished each member of the School Board was equally strong in favour of the economy as Mr. Hardy was that morning. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Hardy put the question as one affecting the ratepayers, and, therefore, from their point of view, it was a question of finances. He (Alderman Fraser) only rose for the purpose of pointing out to the Hall that the report appeared in one particular to be incomplete. It gave the expenditure which might and would be incurred if this rifle range was provided. But it failed to give the other side of the account. (Hear, hear) They should remember that owing to the operations of a rifle corps a very large sum of money indeed was earned by the regiment which was Government money brought into and expended in the town. (Hear, hear.) Therefore he thought, judging from the ratepayers' point of view, if they took into consideration the expenditure they might be called upon to undertake, they should also take into account the benefit that arose to the town from the expenditure of so large a sum of money. He confessed that at first he had some little doubt as to whether the Council would be wise in sanctioning this large expenditure of money. But on consideration he thought it was equally their duty to reflect public opinion in a matter of this description. (Hear, hear.) He thought no one who had heard and read what had been said in the town in the last few weeks could failed to be convinced that this movement was extremely popular in the town. They would fail in their duty if they stood in the way of giving expression to public opinion, if by any act of the Council that morning they should, as that report stated, destroy the Robin Hoods. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. Wells thought it required a little courage to say anything that morning, seeing the popular feeling which had been introduced into the meeting. He did not wish to say a word against the regiment. It probably did deserve all that had been said about it. But there was another point of view from which that question should be looked at. It was not a local question: it was an imperial question, and it ought to be approached on those lines. The issue put before the Council that morning was that if they did not accept that report the result would be that the regiment must be disbanded. (No, no.) He did not see that that result would follow at all. If the regiment was so popular in the town as was claimed, such a result would not follow any action of the Council that morning. He wished to point out that the result spoken of ought to be placed before the War Department. (Cries of "It has been.") Then, he argued, the War Department had looked all round the question, and they had given their decision, notwithstanding the result might be the disbanding of the regiment. Then they had it that the War Department did not think it worthwhile to keep up the regiment, and they did not think it was necessary and worth the outlay of money for the maintenance of the regiment. He said that the War Department had accepted that result. He looked upon this as an Imperial question, and they ought not to pay for this range out of the public funds of the town. There was another consideration in regard to this question. It had been stated that this range was to be the public property of the town, and was to be for the exclusive use of the Robin Hoods. He held that if a range was of such vital importance as had been argued that morning it was the duty of the regiments in neighbouring towns to combine and obtain for themselves a range. Why should the range be for the exclusive use of one regiment only? He felt he had now expressed his views. He should vote against such an outlay, and he considered the question ought to have been discussed after they had dealt with the Budget for the ensuing year. He was opposed to the outlay of local money for Imperial purposes.

Ald. Sir John Turney, replying on the discussion, said the last speaker only proved how few men looked into a question before they came to that Hall and talked. (Laughter.) Mr. Wells had told them that the volunteer forces of this district ought to combine to provide a range. Had Mr. Wells any idea of the difficulty of obtaining such a range, or what kind of range would be required for half a dozen forces equal to the Robin Hoods to be shooting at the same time. The range which was being provided would be only equal to the wants of the volunteers of Nottingham. Then there was the travelling expense; the men could neither spare the time nor the money for the purpose. Then, he was astonished at his friend, Mr. Hardy, who, as a rule, talked good sense. (Laughter.) Mr. Hardy looked at this question from a financial point of view, and he was a member of the School Board - one of those gentlemen whom they considered responsible for a good deal of expenditure which was going on there. (Laughter.) While Mr. Hardy did not object to the money being spent by the School Board he did object on a matter of this kind. Mr. Hardy very willingly voted for the report of the Building Committee of the Education Department of this town when they presented plans for a higher grade school, in which there was a large swimming bath, about 50ft. by 30ft., to be made. Nothing was said about that expenditure. He (the speaker) asked for a solid vote on this matter. With reference to the Sheriff and his appearance before the Queen. he had wondered many a time in walking down Mansfield-road, what made that man so proud, and why he carried himself in the way he did. (Laughter.) He had just been asking Ald. Lambert about the subject, as he thought the Sheriff had been in the regular forces; whilst as to Mr, Bentley, the Queen evidently moved to him because she thought he was the colonel of the regiment. (Laughter.)

The motion for the adoption of the report was then put and carried, only four voting to the contrary.